Parks. Freeways. Street lamps. You might not group those together, but they’re all public goods – the goods and services that prop up a functioning society. They’re also things that our market-based economy doesn’t supply in the right places and right amounts without some thoughtful public policy.

Spencer Bowen (MPP ’20) sat down with his fellow MPP candidate Eric Harris Bernstein to talk about public goods – and specifically public restrooms. 

In this episode, you’ll hear a broad overview of public goods, takes on ongoing bathroom-centered equity battles, scholarly perspectives on restrooms’ place in our culture, and much more. You’ll also hear a story about bathrooms that Eric produced in the fall for North Gate Radio’s “The Fix,” a radio show about public policy solutions.

Transcript

Eric Bernstein [00:00:00] They are literally the things that structure our physical existence. A lot of the things that you know we rely on for basic existence are public goods in one way or another.

Spencer Bowen [00:00:09] Public goods. The things all around us that make the world turn. Sometimes we take them for granted and sometimes we barely even talk about them. But not today.

Spencer Bowen [00:00:30] Today we're talking public goods, and specifically, public bathrooms. I sat down with my classmate Eric to talk about what public goods are and why they're important. At the end of the episode we'll play a story on public bathrooms that Eric produced last fall for Berkeley's Northgate radio. I'm Spencer Bowen, and this is Talk Policy to Me.

Eric Bernstein [00:01:04] I'm Eric Harris Bernstein. I'm a first year MPP student here at the Goldman School. Before coming here I worked at a small progressive economic think tank called the Roosevelt Institute which is based in New York. And while I was there I got to learn a lot about tax policy, antitrust policy, financial sector regulation, and I became pretty interested in public goods

Spencer Bowen [00:01:24] Public goods. Yeah. First distinction. This is inspired by a lot of Democratic candidate speeches so far. They bring up "the public good" and then we also in econ and in public life talk a lot about "a public good." Where do you see that distinction?

Eric Bernstein [00:01:41] In the most literal sense. There's the notion of like the public good which would be the broader public good writ large. And then there's public goods which are physical things or services that the government might provide. But I think there is a sense that the public good is a moral state of existence and that to me is not a useful way to talk about the investments that we need. You know public goods on the other hand are your favorite parks. There's the bathroom like I talked about in my little segment and you know that you need desperately when you're downtown San Francisco and you've got nowhere else to go.

Spencer Bowen [00:02:20] The Goldman school is famous for a really tough quantitative and econometric curriculum. So I asked Eric what he thought about public goods through the lens of economics.

 [00:02:33] Are you satisfied with our kind of formal academic definition of public goods?

Eric Bernstein [00:02:39] So an economist will tell you that a public good is not excludable and non-rivalrous. And that means it's something that you can't keep people out of. So basically everyone benefits from it. So  they're not excludable but they're also non rivalrous which means that like if I take some of it you can take just as much as you want. I actually think that you known there's problems with that definition in that way of framing it. But I think that kind of works. But I would say that what I'm not satisfied with is the level of appreciation for public goods that our like standard economic education will place.

Spencer Bowen [00:03:21] So he's mostly satisfied with our formal definition but not our appreciation. Why is that?

Eric Bernstein [00:03:28] The other part of it is the cultural conversation about public goods. And I think that it's sort of unfortunate that in some ways we spend so much time and effort valuing and discussing the things that are private and that we get from the market. And in reality lthere are so many great things that the market does not provide that we find it better for the government to provide.

Spencer Bowen [00:03:59] Just because the field of economics does a good job defining public goods doesn't mean that our economy will always supply those goods.

Eric Bernstein [00:04:09] It's just not a sensical way to provide some things because they're non-excludable and they're non rivalrous. Therefore we must do it publicly. So in a way economics almost helps us out by saying "yeah we're not good at charging for these things and providing for these things, these are things that really by definition are public" not like easily sold.

Spencer Bowen [00:04:30] Well it's also the waving of an economics white flag of like this is something where this doesn't quite check out.

Eric Bernstein [00:04:36] It doesn't work with our model, right, because there's no profit motive.

Spencer Bowen [00:04:41] Is there something uniquely American about how we talk, or don't talk, about public goods?

Spencer Bowen [00:04:50] They're sort of these vague things that surround us and sometimes, especially in a country like ours where you're not exposed to the best examples of public goods, because for example you don't get health care from the government then it can be kind of hard to buy into this theory that if we all pay into something it's going to really actually work out. But the truth is it does, and there are good examples of things that work out in day to day life. And I guess I'll transition, that's how I got interested in this idea of public restrooms because everyone needs to go to the bathroom and like it turns out that you're going to be pretty happy when there's a bathroom nearby and you need one to use.

Spencer Bowen [00:05:26] So how did Eric connect the dots between public goods and public bathrooms?

Eric Bernstein [00:05:32] But when you dig on this subject there really is something there and that's why it was like so funny -- not funny but that's why it made sense that I was able to find like to really like thoughtful scholars to talk about public restrooms and you know their place in the world and how the system is different in the United States than it is in other countries because it's not a trivial question and it's a common one.

Spencer Bowen [00:06:06] Public restrooms seem simple but they present unique challenges.

 [00:06:13] So like we can provide a bunch of public restrooms like a basic public restroom we all think of in a public park. But if that doesn't work for people and how they identify you you know where do we cross a line from something that works pretty well for a lot of people to something that is truly public and works for everyone?

Eric Bernstein [00:06:29] Right. And so then the issue is like hearing from a diverse array of voices in a much more equitable way and designing things. In keeping with sort of you know our actual sort of cultural needs and I think that like the really obvious example that comes up in the news a lot lately is access for transgender people who are not always welcome in the restrooms of of their choosing and who like you know some states are actually trying to actively discriminate against. That's a very sort of hot news topic because it does have this like serious edge of this sort of active vilification of this vulnerable population. But I just want to say that that's not like the only constituency that like suffers from the current way in which we think about public bathrooms and the author that I interviewed had that really great line where she said the most obvious way that we discriminate with the way we do our bathrooms is that women always wait. And men never have a line because we just have not allocated the ratios of toilets to people in the same way for men and for women. And it's just this very blatant gender discrimination that exists everywhere. And so the point is to like find ways to open up this bathroom conversation in a more equitable fashion.

Spencer Bowen [00:07:58] Fair warning. This next part is a little bit gross.

 [00:08:02] There's also you mentioned the episode a legitimate public health question about providing good [bathrooms]. I'm wondering if you could expand on that a little bit.

Eric Bernstein [00:08:10] Yeah. So kind of an insane thing but like when I was looking for a hook, one of the things that I found was this recent spike in hepatitis diagnoses in a couple of cities. So hepatitis A spreads basically from the ingestion and direct contact of feces. Infected feces. It's a pretty sad statement that we allow people who are human beings living in our society to exist in such a state of deprivation that they don't have the facilities necessary to separate their bowel movements from like their ingestion. I think a lot of people would be quick to blame the individual. But the truth is if you have nowhere to go to the bathroom and have nowhere to wash your hands you're pretty likely to have that contamination at some point. You know I mean? Like even if you really tried your best and that's you know it's a pretty awful thought. It's kind of shocking. Yeah.

Spencer Bowen [00:09:12] It's a statistic going backwards.

Eric Bernstein [00:09:13] It's certainly a sign of a deep deep failure of public systems.

Spencer Bowen [00:09:19] That's one thing I actually wanted to ask you about is -- do you think in kind of investigating this story and spelling out a lot of the shortcomings that we have on this issue. Do you think it's more towards the side of we're coasting over these issues because they're kind of easy and it's like a lack of attention? Or is it a sign of something deeper in our system of governance and provision of these type of goods, something a little more nefarious?

Eric Bernstein [00:09:43] I mean I think it's really the sign of a deep deep public rot. And then you think about the Green New Deal and all the things we need to do to protect much more complex systems that have been under much more strain for much longer. And you just wonder if we will ever muster the will to act collectively on the scale that we need to act collectively not just to address like poverty in this country and to address drastic wealth inequality but also to address the problems facing our planet. And I think the notion that we don't even have it together enough to give people a place to wash their hands is a really bad indicator of our chances at weathering some of these storms that are coming.

Spencer Bowen [00:10:25] Everyone here at Goldman is passionate about something. I wanted to go a little deeper on the connection between public goods and something I know Eric cares a lot about: organized labor.

 [00:10:37] I know this because because we're classmates and buddies. But you talk a lot about...organized labor right. So do you see any parallels between this kind of vague idea of public goods and your well-documented expertise and passion for for Labor?

Eric Bernstein [00:10:58] So I think that the only way to have a successful society is to understand that there are a certain number of people on this planet with us and in this country with us and there is very little to be gained from allowing people to suffer and the things that are gained from allowing people to suffer are not worth the suffering that they cost.

Spencer Bowen [00:11:29] Eric also has a personal connection to public restrooms. His older brother has ulcerative colitis, a disease that makes access to public restrooms especially important. I asked him whether that impacted how he thinks about something simple like a bathroom.

Eric Bernstein [00:11:44] So when my brother was diagnosed with ulcerative colitis I think we were all sensitive and happy that he had discovered that he had this issue and that that's why you know he had certain different experiences than other people were having. And we were obviously also concerned. But it does kind of bring it home for sure because maybe we all sometimes had the experience of needing to go and not having a place to go. But when you think of someone that you love who you're close to having that experience and like really not being in control of the situation which is what colitis can do when it's flaring up then that's, you know, it's a pretty deeply upsetting thought.

Spencer Bowen [00:12:34] After the break we'll listen to Eric's story and hear from his brother on public restrooms.

Ad [00:12:49] Our incredible faculty and staff are a big part of why we love GSPP. We want to take a moment to recognize a few recent achievements and honors that our professors, advisors, and mentors have earned in the past few weeks. Congratulations to Steve Raphael, our beloved economics and econometrics professor, for winning the academic Senate's Distinguished Teaching Award. One of the highest honors that UC Berkeley bestows upon professors for Excellence in teaching, mentorship, course design, and community involvement. A huge congratulations to assistant adjunct professor Saru Jayaraman who won the San Francisco Chronicle's visionary of the Year award. Sara has been an inspiring leader in organizing restaurant workers to advocate for raised minimum wage for tipped workers. She is working toward a model where restaurant workers are compensated just like workers in any other industry. Its pioneering work and we're so excited to have Saru at GSPP. Jalilah LaBrie, the Associate Director of Student Affairs, recently won the outstanding faculty and staff advisor Award for her incredible commitment to the GSPP community. Jalilah supports students a thousand different ways including making sure we're taking the classes we need to, helping us find campus jobs, and assisting us in navigating the sometimes complex UC system. Congratulations Jalilah, and thank you for all that you do. Finally congratulations to professor emeritus David Kirp, who was elected a Fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, a hub of Policy Research in the US. David has made incredible contributions to the fields of K12 and higher education and writes on a wide range of topics as an op ed writer for The New York Times. Congratulations Steve, Saru, Jalilah, David.

Eric Bernstein [00:14:35] Bathrooms: such a basic human need. And yet perhaps for that reason easily forgotten. For many groups now and throughout history, the fight for sufficient, free, and accessible bathrooms is a real challenge. Securing access to bathrooms was an important point in the labor rights movement of the 1930s. Segregated restrooms were a hallmark of the Jim Crow South. And female elected officials fought for decades to get suitable facilities installed in our nation's capital. Bathroom access for transgender people is just the latest bathroom centric social equity campaign to receive national attention. I started reading about our lack of public toilets and what I found stinks even worse than, well you know. [toilet flushes]

Harvey Molotch [00:15:16] On a massive level, the idea of providing places for people to go when they're in public is generally avoided. It's a taboo zone and that taboo has all kinds of negative consequences.

Eric Bernstein [00:15:31] That's Harvey Molotch, co-editor of the forthcoming book Toilet: Public Restrooms and the Politics of Sharing. He thinks our lack of public restrooms reflects our lack of public goods in general.

Harvey Molotch [00:15:41] We live in a time where public provision of almost anything is a little bit taboo. Something that would provide people access to public facilities is a difficult thing to discuss and to implement.

Eric Bernstein [00:15:58] Statistics on our lack of access to public restrooms are hard to come by. But consider this: since 2016 public health officials from Boston to San Diego have noted a disturbing rise in hepatitis A. Hepatitis A is primarily transmitted by the accidental consumption of feces. Infection can be largely prevented with basic hygiene like handwashing but washing your hands is hard if you have no place to go and it just so happens that no place to go is the title of yet another exciting new book on public restrooms. I spoke with the author Lezlie Lowe.

Lezlie Lowe [00:16:30] In the West we sort of have this opinion that bathrooms are fine. Everybody makes do. And I think that too is to an extent is true. Everybody makes do, but often to make do a whole bunch of different user groups are doing things that other user groups don't have to do and the most obvious example is women wait in line for public bathrooms, men don't.

Eric Bernstein [00:16:51] Like Harvey Leslie emphasize the fact that what might be totally acceptable for one group of people, namely more privileged people, could be completely insufficient for pretty much everyone else.

Harvey Molotch [00:17:02] Public bathrooms don't work for a whole mess of user groups. Transgender individuals, people who are differently abled, people who have invisible quote unquote disabilities like Crohn's or colitis.

Eric Bernstein [00:17:17] Wait a second. Colitis that sounds familiar. I wonder if I know someone who could talk about that. Maybe someone who shares a certain familial -- oh I've got it.

Andrew Bernstein [00:17:29] I'm Andrew Bernstein and I'm your big brother.

Eric Bernstein [00:17:31] Yes you are. My brother suffers from a gastrointestinal disease called ulcerative colitis. The condition sometimes gives him the need to go to the bathroom frequently and with little notice.

Andrew Bernstein [00:17:41] It's the kind of thing where like you know at times in my life I've just like been walking down the street, realizing I need the bathroom, walk into a restaurant you know walked past straight past the host or hostess as it was wanted to use the bathroom.

Eric Bernstein [00:17:53] So public restrooms aren't really cutting it for Andrew but he'll be the first to admit that this solution doesn't really work for everyone. I have a lot of privilege as a white man and I've never once been challenged in a situation like that but you can definitely see how someone else would would not be able to take advantage of private bathrooms as easily as I do.

Eric Bernstein [00:18:12] This disparity of access is something that Leslie really focuses on. It's especially pernicious, she points out because it leads to the perception that there is no problem to begin with.

Lezlie Lowe [00:18:22] When you tell somebody are you writing a book about public bathrooms, for a lot of people the first instinct is to say like this is a non-issue. Who has access to bathrooms tells you who matters in society. I did an interview for a radio piece I'm doing recently with [unintelligible] who's an architectural historian in the UK and she had the best way of putting it -- the weaponization of  trivialization. If I am a trans woman and I want to use the female bathroom and somebody says "whatever shut up you know just use whatever bathroom." That's a really horrible thing because it's trivializing something that is actually massive in somebody else's life.

Eric Bernstein [00:19:11] To me the phrase weaponization of trivialization really hits home. It describes exactly what makes me so angry about the societal blind ey we have turned towards this basic human right. But here at the fix we're all about solutions. So we have to ask: is anyone getting it right? Well it turns out there's at least one promising program not so far from home. San Francisco's pit stop program introduced a number of free public restrooms in order to meet the needs of the city's homeless community. Pit stop provides about 200000 restroom visits per year. Each facility is equipped with a safe needle disposal and is manned by an attendant who keeps things running smoothly. In April of this year a pit stop monitor named Albert Corio saved the life of a man who had overdosed inside the Tenderloin location he was monitoring. Proof of the program's value is already popping up across the country. Miami Denver and Sacramento all launched similar programs shortly after pit stop opened in San Francisco and last spring Los Angeles opened up some pit stop branded facilities of its own. Public restrooms. Should have thought of that soon. For North Gate radio, I'm Eric Harris Bernstein.

Spencer Bowen [00:20:36] Talk policy to me is a production of UC Berkeley's Goldman School of Public Policy and the Berkeley Institute for the future of young Americans. Thanks to my classmate Eric Harris Bernstein for joining me. I asked Eric why he chose Goldman. Here's his answer.

Eric Bernstein [00:20:52] Berkeley was my top choice from the beginning because the program is ranked very well and everything but also I guess honestly for two reasons one being that it happens to have the greatest collection of progressive economists on Earth on campus here, and the second reason is that it's a public university.

Spencer Bowen [00:21:10] For show notes visit talkpolicytome.org. Music heard on today's episode is by Pat Mesiti-Miller and Blue Dot Sessions. Our executive producers are Bora Lee Reed and Sarah Swanbeck. Michael Quiroz is our engineer. From all of us here at Talk Policy to Me, I'm Spencer Brown. See you next time.